GSD using Derwent Graphitint

[Gayle]

These pencils are just hitting the shops in the UK, they are soluble coloured graphite. When used dry they look like graphite with a tint of colour, if you wet them the colour becomes more intense.
I've included a photo for anybody who's interested, they come in 24 colours.
!4 x 12 on Arches Hot Press watercolour paper.

Gayle

[oozoo]

OOOOOOOOOOOOoo I want!! I have some soluble graphite, but it's just light, medium, and dark.

Great pic btw...hope you continue to show us the wip!!

[Norma69]

Looks VERY interesting! And...... Super start on the shepard!!
Keep up updated on your progress and thanks for the demo

Norma

[Bob Ebdon]

OOOHHH! Great! Let us know what you think of these Gayle. There is a big debate going on at present both in the UKCPS and in the CPSA as to whether these "count" as coloured pencils or not. Can you layer them? Burnish them? Blend them? How do they feel?

Wonderful work as usual!! I don't want to hijack this thread, but for those interested, the picture on the box was done by UKCPS Member Stephen Ormerod, and can be seen in more detail here: http://www.ukcps.co.uk/Ormerod.htm
or on his own website here: http://www.sormerod.co.uk/

I think the two pictures on Stephens page in graphitint show the range of colour that you can get from these pencils when you wet them. In your GSD, have you underpainted wet and used a lot of dry on top?

[Meldy]

Wow! I didn't know that those existed!

[Gayle]

Thanks for the comments.
I have used them dry and then added a little water using a 00 brush in certain areas. In my limited use they behave like graphite rather than CP, they layer to some extent but I'm quite sure that three or four layers would be the maximum, mix well with graphite rather than CP, will burnish with some effort, feel quite smooth rather than scratchy, behaving like B/2B graphite rather than HB/2H etc.
I cannot imagine they will have wide appeal to the majority of CP users, why use 24 graphite pencils when there are so many colours in regular CP. I imagine their appeal will be for graphite artists wanting a hint of colour, which is what I wanted to achieve.
I'll do a close up which will give you a better idea of the texture.

Gayle

[Sandy]

Hey Gayle thanks for posting the picture, that helps. I told you before that I totaly love this look and I can't wait to buy me some.

Sandy

[Denise]

Wow! I have never heard of these! I absolutely want some!

Your shephard is coming along beautifully...love the mix of graphite and color...the eyes are gorgeous!
Hope you continue to show us more of the wip.

[oozoo]

I looked for these online and couldn't find them for sale..if anyone sees any please post the link??

[Gemma]

Oooohhhh,,, I want these too! Great start as usual Gayle, love what your have done so far!
Gemma

[alison2]

Hi Gayle,

I've read about this and to be able to see them is just great! I love what you're doing with them.

I was hoping to check them out at the Artists and Illustrators exhibition in July in London - I think someone's doing some workshops on them. I've not booked for the workshop but was hoping to have a play with them on the Derwent stand! I'm even more determined now!

Thanks for sharing :clap: !

Alison

[Valda]

I'm really interested in this WIP because I bought a couple of these pencils and wasn't all that impressed.

With my limited experimentation I found that it is almost useless for a wash, which is what I had expected. When wet with a brush the pigment didn't disolve all that much and so the wash was so pale was not worth the effort. An ink wash or one with watercolor would have been better.

However, wetting the strokes did make them more intense.

Gayle, can you give us a closeup of the process you used when wetting the w/s graphite?

Edit: Now that I'm looking at my pencils a bit closer, I find they are Derwent Graphic - a water-soluble graphite. :blushing: So, I'm thinking that these are not the same thing as the ones you are useing, Gayle.

[Bob Ebdon]

I wondered how you got hold of them in US Valda! The Derwent graphite are nice pencils, they give good grey washes, but the graphitint give really brightly coloured washes. Any more progress Gayle? And how is your son?

[lene]

Hi Gayle

this is going to be an excellent portrait :clap: The nose is fantastic...
I think you are right about the appeal of these pencils, being more interesting for graphite work with a tint of coloring than actually "colorpencil-work". ;)

[beth]

Oooh, these look so neat! Do they blend like graphite...like with a tortillon? Great job on the GSD so far.

Beth

[Gayle]

I've actually done a bit more on this.
Beth, they do blend, used dry they behave like ordinary graphite but with a hint of colour.
Alison, there is a demo of them at the A&I, I was hoping to go, but I'm too busy unfortunately.
Valda, Bob was right, these are more colourful than the graphic.

Gayle

[Denise]

WOW, Gayle:droppedja !!! That is truly excellent! Are these pencils available in the US?

[Meisie]

I love the way these pencils look! The hint of colour is beautiful!
Really looking forward to see the next installment.

Meisie

[Rose]

Hi everyone,

I found they are for sale at this website:

http://www.jacksonsart.co.uk/wildcardsearch.php?id=notsowild&custorstaff=customer&mixedsearch=graphitint_items_99_pencils&searchterm=cheese&searchterm1=all&this_medium=pencils

It appears there is open stock and a tin of 24 is costing roughly $32 US dollars plus a minimum of $7 US for postage (maybe more). There are also sets of 12 and 36. May want to check it out if you feel rich! :-) Not me, not today!

[beth]

Thanks for that, Rose!!! I went ahead and tried to place an order. I'm just waiting on the confirmation of shipping charge. I also was able to order so I don't have to pay the VAT since I am shipping them to America. That took a few bucks off. :) I can't wait to try these.

[Rose]

Beth,

So glad you got to order! Can't wait to see some of your colored graphite drawings now! See, that color you added to the giraffe may have been the start of a new trend! :-)

[beth]

Hehe, well I certainly didn't start it, but I'll be glad to run with it. It's so much fun!

[Jan]

What a beautiful start you've made on your dog! Love the colors...and I like the idea of watersoluble graphite pencils, too. :-) I guess they're not available in the U.S. though, right? Shame...I like drawing with graphite.

Jan

[brynmr]

Great piece Gayle! Boy do I want those pencils!! :bangin:

[brynmr]

Gimme gimme gimme!!!!!!!! :dance3:

Gayle I know I asked you this before but I'm unclear as to your answer mostly because my brain is missing. Do these colored pencils smear like ordinary pencils?

[vltz]

GORGEOUS!!! I love your drawing and the effect those pencils give...of course I want to buy some of those too, looks like fun!
V

[Orian]

truly awsome!

[Jayd]

Have you tried layering cp over them--I have colored mechancal leads--would these be like those?

[MickeyG]

I just bought a tin of 24 from my local art store...they had literally just arrived and not even unpacked yet...the girl was surprised when I asked for them :)

[beth]

Michelle, I am green with envy! :D

[Gayle]

Sorry I have been so long replying.
They behave like graphite, they do smear if you want them to, I tried using a stump and they smeared well.
I have used ordinary CP on top and it does work, but the effect is similar to using CP over ordinary graphite. I would just use them on their own or with graphite.
Anyway here's the next update.

Gayle

[marilyn h]

This is wonderful Gayle. I like the technique.

[Denise]

love it!! I have to get some of those pencils....

[Gayle]

Thank you Marilyn and Denise.

I think I'm going to call it finished and not take the colour any further but I would appreciate any one else's thoughts.

Gayle

[Denise]

Gayle- this is very beautiful! One thing though, I am having a hard time reading the section under the mouth to the left as you look at the picture. I don't know much about animal portraits but in just looking at that section, I can't distinguish the muzzle from the neck. Maybe needs more shadow to fix?

Gemma would know...she's the queen.

[Brenda]

Wow... Gayle this is absolutely gorgeous. The dog is radiating alertness and intelligence. It's amazing how you captured those atributes. These pencils are really nice.

I am having a bit of problem with the same area Denise is having. I have no clue how to fix it but I know you can take care of it. You're so talented!

[Lumosart]

Oh this is so beautiful! The fur is my favorite part.

[Amazingreys]

Just a FYI.......my local Dick Blick carries the new Graphitint! :clap:

[lene]

Hi Gayle
Your German shephard looks great :)
Seeing a lot of excellent work from you I must admit seing this finished it seems to differ from your usual dog-drawings. This could be due to trying a new medium, I know, or you could yourself want a different "expression" of your drawing than usual.
What I see different is use of line (top of nose"back" - I have no idea of the english word) and also a more illustrative/"simplistic" approach in the way you render the fur and mouth.
Actually I wouldn't have guessed this drawing was yours if I didn't know. I have to emphasize that I think the drawing is great, but not quite your usual style :) :bye1:

[Bob Ebdon]

I'll agree with Lene. Different Gayle. You may be interested to know that at the AGM of the UKCPS, these were accepted as being coloured pencils, and pefrectly allowable for exhibition. So theoretically, you could enter this GSD into our main exhibition. I have to add a couple of things. First - this is NOT quite how the CPSA view them. The CPSA has said they are allowable in any picture that also contains some CP, under, between OR OVER layers of CP. The UKCPS has gone that stage further and said that a picture containing Graphitint only will be allowed. Second - what do you think? Personally, I don't get them. If I want watersoluble pencils, I will use the watercolour pencils. I don't really get the reason for muddying the colours with Graphite. I suspect if you were doing a portrait of a GSD and not testing the graphitints, you may have used them for the fur - but not the tongue? There may be times when they give you something you want, but I don't see them being used very often, so despite my reservations, I am reasonably happy with our ruling.

[Rose]

Bob,

I have a tin of Graphitint too and don't see the attraction. They are soft to lay down, and they really don't create the nice kind of washes you would get with wc pencils.. I think it's just better to use wc pencils and you don't have the gray to deal with... the color is more intense and less muddy. I agree with the CPSA ruling in your part of the world. The pencils are okay, but not by themselves.

[Amazingreys]

Hhhmmmm. I thought the Graphitint looked interesting.
I've never used wcp before. I love the look of watercolor, but painting is definitely not my thing.
I must say I like this portrait and it appeals to me to try a pet portrait with the Graphitint. (Add to my list of "someday" projects!) :)

[Gemma]

Gayle, You've done an excellent job on this!!:clap: :clap: I got a set of 24 graphitints so I can try them out.... as soon as I finish my hippo's. :D :D

Gemma

[Bob Ebdon]

Having thought further on this I am disappointed in the exec ruling on these pencils. I was not inolved in discussions, though, and of course accept the result, but feel that this might be the thin end of the wedge. I have recently been told that the Pastel Society accepts cp work into its exhibitions - can anyone confirm that they do accept cp and not just pastel pencils?If this is true, I am somewhat amazed! I just cannot see that cp is anthing like pastel! I suppose oil pastel, yes, I see that. But that horrible chalky stuff??? Does the Pastel Society include oil pastels then? This is really disappointing news for me. I love cp. End of story. To me, if you can't burnish it, if it feels gritty or chalky, if it makes horrible dust, its not cp. I wanted to form a Society just for the one medium that I found that I was ever anything like reasonable in, and I would personally be gutted if it diluted to include what for me are other media. This is why I was cannot be in full agreement with the exec when they say Graphitints are coloured pencils. They are not what I call cp, and also Derwent does not call them cp - they are called coloured Graphite. Skilled artists like Gayle will of course be able to do wonderful work with them - Stephen Ormerod who did the tin lids, and the other artists Derwent are using to promote it have done wonderful pictures. But to me including these in a cp exhibition makes as much sense as including an oil painting or a watercolour. Eevn if its a Degas, I don't want it in a cp exhibition.

If we go that route, then we become the Society of Graphic Fine Arts - any drawing media acceptable. Or the Pastel Society, which seems then to be the same as us. I wanted us to be different.

The exec argument seems to be that if we allow graphite into pictures for the exhibition, then we have to allow these. Where we differ from the CPSA is that the CPSA has said that they are NOT coloured pencil, they can be used, but only in conjunction with cp.

I am sorry that for the next six days I am away from a computer, teaching. Maybe I will have calmed down when I get back.__________________

[lene]

Hi
This is just a respond on Bobs post:
Just my personal view on different media; they are different when the raw materials to make them are different. Therefor any pastel (soft, hard, pencil or oil) are NOT the same as colored pencil. Even watercolor can be put into sticks and oilpastel into pencils they are not colored pencils.
I am very much in doubt if the watersoluble colored pencils actually are made of watercolor-materials or cp-materials, but I know they are generally considered and accepted as colorpencils.
I don't know these Graphitint pencils at all.
So from my view, I agree with you Bob, it could be difficult to set a limit, when the Societies "mix" them all together and at the same time calling themselves "pastels" or "colored pencils" or "watercolor" Societies.
I enjoy to work with both graphite, cp, pastel and watercolor. I also think they can be mixed in a drawing/painting. But I do like that you can join a Society that emphazises skills in just one media. And like in the UKCPS (as I understand it) you have a competition stricktly permitting colorpencils and another which accepts other media in a smaller degree.
I don't think the German Shephard Dog Club accepts Border Collies into their club either, even both dogs are excellent breeds and even the same owner can have each kind :rolleyes: ;) But then the owner can take both dogs to the "obediencetraining-club" and both are accepted. Speciality and variaty - it is nice to have both choises. :cool:
PS. I am glad that ScribbleTalk has different media Forums. I also find it nice we keep the limits as intended, not allowing pure watercolor or pure acrylics here.

[Meisie]

I agree with you Bob..that they are not cp, they may be accepted as a medium to be used with cp, but cp they are not, they are coloured graphite pencils...hmmmmm

Meisie

[painterpete]

I have been looking at the threads here on acceptability of Graphitint as ruled by UKCPS at the AGM last weekend. I chaired the meeting of the Executive and also the AGM and I think there may be some confusion over the decision (though we were quite clear in our own minds !) It was not our intention to give the impression that we regarded Graphitint as CP. We don't.

It was not our intention to give the impression that 100% Graphitint pictures will be allowed as CP either.

The Society's existing rules allow graphite as a layer in a 'Pure CP' picture.
The existing rules allow water soluble pencils, also provided they are designated 'compatible with CP'. and the use of solvents is also allowed in the underlayers.

What we intended to say was that we see no reason why Graphitint should not be freely included with these ancilliary types of pencil allowable in a pure CP picture ( even though Derwent do not specifically say that they are 'compatible with CP'). Provided that the final layer is 100% Cp (as now) the picture will be acceptable. Perhaps in the flood of information at the AGM the full wording of the decision was not made clear and if that is the case, I personally apologise both to Bob and to members.

I am checking back with the Secretary of the Society who has the minutes and once I have confirmed to exact and official line, as decided at the meeting, I will post the exact wording here so that there will be no doubt.

Peter Weatherill
UKCPS

[painterpete]

UKCPS Annual General Meeting

As promised, this is a confirmation that the UK Coloured Pencil Society Rules on what comprises a work in Pure Coloured Pencil are unchanged. The decision on Graphitint is to allow it as an underlayer both as a source of graphite (already allowed) and as a source of soluble pigment (also already allowed - but previously only from pencil sources labled 'compatible with CP'). Graphitint is not specifically labled 'Compatible' but the decision is that it will be accepted if the artist chooses to use it. The Society has not tested compatibility.

I hope this clarifies the position

Peter Weatherill
UKCPS



The existing rules for submission of pictures in pure CP are as follows.
The words ' including Graphitint' are added after 'Graphite pencil' below.

Coloured pencil does not include pastel pencils. It does include crayons labelled by manufacturers as “containing coloured pencil pigments” or “compatible with CP” e.g. Caran d’Ache Neocolor 11, or Derwent Aquatone. There shall be no restriction on how the pencils are used – all solvents including water are acceptable. Graphite pencil may be used under or between layers of coloured pencil, but the pigment surface of the work should be 100% coloured pencil. Coloured support media such as coloured mount board, Canson Mi-Teintes or similar papers are permitted, but any colour added to the ground by the artist should be done with the coloured pencil pigments. The artist will be asked to state that any work they submit meets these criteria and the Society reserves the right to reject any work they believe does not do so.

[Bob Ebdon]

I would just like to add my apologies to Peter and to the exec of the UKCPS if I got anything wrong from what I took from the AGM. I have seen Peter and he assured me it was their mistake, but I am always ready to admit that I am not the best listener and have been known in the past to misunderstand. I have had a good chat with Peter about this and am happy with the UKCPS position on these pencils.