my deleted post

[brynmr]

Last week I posted an image of two girls about to engage in a kiss. They were nude and an appropriate icon was used to inform viewers. Bill C deleted my post containing this image. He informed me that this went beyond nudity to erotic art. Not giving it too much thought I apologized and that was that. Since then I've read the rules and apparently no violation was made on my part.

"Works displaying sexual activities ARE permitted, provided the art is tasteful, and does not illustrate the perspective of physical penetration."

I would appreciate an apology from Bill C. I suggest he read the rules. If he has found my image pornographic (which is isn't) I would like a full explanation so we may debate this.

Thank you.

Please move this thread to the appropiate place if need be.

Tommy

[Gemma]

Last week I posted an image of two girls about to engage in a kiss. They were nude and an appropriate icon was used to inform viewers. Bill C deleted my post containing this image. He informed me that this went beyond nudity to erotic art. Not giving it too much thought I apologized and that was that. Since then I've read the rules and apparently no violation was made on my part.

"Works displaying sexual activities ARE permitted, provided the art is tasteful, and does not illustrate the perspective of physical penetration."

I would appreciate an apology from Bill C. I suggest he read the rules. If he has found my image pornographic (which is isn't) I would like a full explanation so we may debate this.

Thank you.

Please move this thread to the appropiate place if need be.

Tommy

Tommy,

Bill had gotten a few complaints, privately, about your thread. When this happens our policy is to pull the thread and put it in a holding area so we as a team can look at it and decide if it is adhearing to our rules. During the time Bill had gotten the complaints we were all at CPSA convention and having problems with the internet connection we had at the hotel. Bill's intention was to move the post in question to review but it seemed to get lost in cyber land somewhere or just simply deleted. The reason I am answering for Bill right now is that he is not available all day and I didn't want you to think you were being ignored. If you would like, please send me your attachment and we will handle this issue. Bill was just simply trying to do what he was suppose to be doing by moving it and it accidently got deleted instead. In the future I would appreciate it if you have a complaint with one of our volunteers/moderators (I want to emphasize the word volunteer) please send either Arlene or I a PM rather than complaining publicly.

Gemma and Arlene

[Gemma]

This thread has been moved by me to site discussions.
Gemma

[brynmr]

I believe a few complaints should not automatically warrant a removal because a removal is a serious act and there are a lot of overly zealous people in the world who have nothing better to do than become offended by things just outside their comfort zone. It seems obvious to me that no rules were broken having just read them (correctly I hope). The complainers speak more of their own bias towards sexual activity rather than of legitimate concern for violations. It would be interesting if the complainers were to point to where they think rules were broken. That way they might learn something. If I'm missing something here maybe I'll learn something.

Thank you for the explanation Gemma. In the future I'll address the administration though I do believe this kind of airing is healthy provided it's in the proper place and not done out of intent to harm.

[artfulscribe]

I must have missed the post in question. Based on your description, however, I would also classify it as erotic art. Is that wrong? Not necessarily. "Tasteful" is very subjective. I am more than willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, though. And that's what brings me to my real purpose in responding... A little tolerance goes a long way, and that goes both ways. Why so quick to assume what "the complainers" said about your post? Why demand an apology when you don't have all the facts? Please don't take this as a personal criticism toward you, but I found it ironic when someone goes seeking open-mindedness, yet they're not willing to play by the same rules. And I also understand your desire to "air" these issues out, but the confrontational way in which you demanded an apology from a moderator who so generously gives of his time to keep this place running was, it seems to me, somewhat premature and just a litte bit ungracious.

Not the final word, of course, just the observations of a neutral third party. Hope we can work it all out and move on for the greater good.

Roxana

[brynmr]

It's not a question of tolerance on my part Roxana. I'm not trying to censor anyone. I'm opening this up for debate. I've said what I thought openly not secretly.

I didn't demand an apology. I said I would appreciate one. Big difference. Asking for an apology doesn't suggest I have no appreciation for for the hard work volunteers do.

I'm sorry I'm not meeting your standard of niceness. Maybe tomorrow.


Tommy

[Dee]

It's not a question of tolerance on my part Roxana. I'm not trying to censor anyone. I'm opening this up for debate. I've said what I thought openly not secretly.

I didn't demand an apology. I said I would appreciate one. Big difference. Asking for an apology doesn't suggest I have no appreciation for for the hard work volunteers do.

I'm sorry I'm not meeting your standard of niceness. Maybe tomorrow.


Tommy

There is a big difference. At the very least, an explanation was/is due.

IMO these type of issues should be discussed openly...Like the issue that someone had about the original nudity icon and that was addressed and changed..

[Yowie]

2 girls kissing are not much different from this:

http://www.cpsa.org/GALLERY/EXPLORE3.GALLERY/Dold05.html

Do not understand all these censorship. It is an art place for artists who are supposed to be used to all forms of nudity, not a kindergarten or middle school

Just my 2c worth.

[Brenda]

Tommy, I believe there is a misunderstanding as to what happened with your post.

That weekend all of the moderators were out of town. All of us. I had a family member die and had to go to southern Oklahoma over the weekend. All the others were at CPSA.

There were complaints about the posts. Bill was using a bad connection while in Chicago. The intention was to move the image until it could be dicussed. Instead it is lost floating in cyber space somewhere. I came back Saturday night and saw a post from you asking Bill to delete the thread. So I did what you asked knowing that Bill was traveling and couldn't do it.

And you are correct. The user agreement does say, "Works displaying sexual activities ARE permitted, provided the art is tasteful, and does not illustrate the perspective of physical penetration." and you did post the nudity icon. I can't speak for Bill (He's working out of town again.) but I really don't believe his intent was to censor your post. He simply wanted to move it until there was time to discuss it. The mistake was losing it. But mistakes happen, ya know?

In my view the only thing to really debate is whether or not an attempt should have been made to move the thread. In normal circumstances none of this would have happened. And it only happened this time because no moderators were able to handle the complaints in a timely manner.

Do you still feel an apology is due? If so, then allow me to apologize for deleting the thread.

[Gemma]

I just would like to repeat a few things here. First the deletion of the attachment was a mistake. Second our policy is not to censor but to make sure that everyone is following the user agreement. When we get complaints the thread will be moved temporarily while we discuss it and make sure that the site rules are being followed. I told Tommy to send me the attachment again so we can do what was originally intended but haven't received it back yet. This site is here for all of us to enjoy and would hope to continue to enjoy. I am terribly sorry if some of you have been offended but I'm sure if you complained about something posted on the site you would expect us to handle it in the best way we know how. We got complaints..... we intended on moving the thread for review not deleting it.

So please folks lets get back to art and put this to rest.
Gemma

[Arlene]

I'm not trying to censor anyone. I'm opening this up for debate. I've said what I thought openly not secretly. I'm sorry but I don't see a debate forum here on Scribble Talk. We have our policy on how to handle anything that might be questionable and it does work. We will remove a thread to the holding bin if there's a question about it and our site rules.

That IS NOT up for debate. It is how Gemma, myself and the moderators have decided to handle things like this. If we hadn't been away, then the thread would either now be in the holding bin or back in the proper forum.

But we were away and what happened with the hotel connection is that everytime you clicked to send a reply it would take you to the Doubletree website and occasionally it would eat a message. I lost two important emails that I needed to send over the weekend because of Doubletree's internet connection. Luckily those two people were more understanding then you seem to be Tommy.
There is a big difference. At the very least, an explanation was/is due. An explanation WAS given with the information we had, and if Tommy had done what we had asked and resubmitted the drawing to us, then we could have by now made a final decision...knowing all the facts...ie what the drawing looks like! I have yet to see it.
IMO these type of issues should be discussed openly It is not for you to decide if something is permissible in terms of nudity or if a drawing that is possible copyright infringement meets the user agreement. That is OUR job.

Do not understand all these censorship. It is an art place for artists who are supposed to be used to all forms of nudity, not a kindergarten or middle school I can assure you I despise censorship in the arts and will and have fought against censorship even when I find a piece of art not to my taste!

At this point the discussion is fruitless without some of us on Scribble Talk staff having seen the drawing. If we find the complaints were valid, the post won't be returned to the forums, but if we find the complaints not valid they will be returned as soon as possible...AFTER WE SEE THE DRAWING

[brynmr]

There were complaints about the posts. Bill was using a bad connection while in Chicago. The intention was to move the image until it could be dicussed. Instead it is lost floating in cyber space somewhere. I came back Saturday night and saw a post from you asking Bill to delete the thread. So I did what you asked knowing that Bill was traveling and couldn't do it.



Hi Brenda. I had no idea of this intention which was a reasonable assumption considering Bill's message. There was never a follow up message so when I saw the re-instated thread sans image I didn't want a reminder of the deletion so I asked for it to be deleted:


Tommy,

I deleted the one attachment in your "out of hand" thread depicting the two ladies kissing. We feel that this attachment went beyond nudity and was approaching erotic art which is not allowed per the user agreement.

We hope you understand.

Bill C

[brynmr]

In my view the only thing to really debate is whether or not an attempt should have been made to move the thread. In normal circumstances none of this would have happened. And it only happened this time because no moderators were able to handle the complaints in a timely manner.

Do you still feel an apology is due? If so, then allow me to apologize for deleting the thread.

That's very kind of you. Thank you so much. Super appreciated. :)

[brynmr]

I just would like to repeat a few things here. First the deletion of the attachment was a mistake. Second our policy is not to censor but to make sure that everyone is following the user agreement. When we get complaints the thread will be moved temporarily while we discuss it and make sure that the site rules are being followed. I told Tommy to send me the attachment again so we can do what was originally intended but haven't received it back yet. This site is here for all of us to enjoy and would hope to continue to enjoy. I am terribly sorry if some of you have been offended but I'm sure if you complained about something posted on the site you would expect us to handle it in the best way we know how. We got complaints..... we intended on moving the thread for review not deleting it.

So please folks lets get back to art and put this to rest.
Gemma


How do I send the image Gemma?

[brynmr]

That IS NOT up for debate. It is how Gemma, myself and the moderators have decided to handle things like this. If we hadn't been away, then the thread would either now be in the holding bin or back in the proper forum.

But we were away and what happened with the hotel connection is that everytime you clicked to send a reply it would take you to the Doubletree website and occasionally it would eat a message. I lost two important emails that I needed to send over the weekend because of Doubletree's internet connection. Luckily those two people were more understanding then you seem to be Tommy.



I am a very understanding person Arlene. By now you've read Bill's message to me so you know there was no mention of a holding bin. It was accusation, decision, end of story. Secondly, I couldn't figure out how to send the image to you guys then I got busy with my drawing so accuse me of being stupid if you will. I'm sorry you guys had a hard time with your computer connection and I had no idea about any holding bin. Had I known any of this it would have been ok but to me from where I was sitting it looked like censorship plain and simple and censorship really gets my back up.

[Gemma]

How do I send the image Gemma?

scribble@scribbletalk.com

[Bill C]

After receiving complaints about the attachment and discussing what should be done with Gemma and Toni I made a decision to remove the image from the thread and put it in the recycle bin, things happened and the image was lost. Deal with it.

I'll not debate or defend my actions. This is not a debate forum and I am not accountable to the members. I am accountable only to the owners of the site, Gemma and Arlene. If they are unhappy with my performance as moderator I will gladly step down, I could certainly use the time saved to do more artwork. I think it's time to close this thread but I'll leave that to the owners to decide.

I am an artist, not a babysitter.

[Gemma]

I have decided to close this thread. As soon as Tommy sends us the attachment we will decide how this matter should be handled. If the attachment is reposted..... please lets just comment on the art and try to understand we are only trying to run this site in the best way we can.

Gemma