Barny - Border Collie - Finished!

[lene]

Hi
this is a sponsor-commission given at a dog-agility show in May. The lady who owns Barny had much trouble finding a picture - and I got a photo with so much sunlight on him on left side and totally black on right side :eek: , so I had to darken a bit here and lighten there.
The drawing is graphite, 9,6 x 12,6 inches on Lukas Schöllershammar.
C + C welcome

[Rose]

Lene,

I love border collies, you surely have captured his eagerness and love for life! These dogs live to work and please and are sooo energetic! His fur looks so soft. You have a way with the pencil... wow! I wish I could critique, but am still working on that part of my learning! :-) Leaving that to the experts. From here Barny looks wonderful! :)

[artmasters]

Hi Lene,

This is beautiful. The hair is wonderfully rendered. If I had to pick anything that needed an adjustment, then I would have to say that his tongue seems to be attached to the front of his mouth. I think if you darkened the back of the tongue it would look like it was emerging from the back of the mouth. It looks a bit flat the way it appears on my monitor. Other than that, it is beautiful!

Dave

[larsnip]

Wonderful drawing, Great contrast!!

Dave

[CindyH]

Wonderful job rendering the hair! Beautiful portrait :)

[lene]

hi
thanks for looking and comments :)

[beth]

Beautiful fur! Wonderful job, never would've guessed you had a bad ref picture.

Beth

[lene]

thanks Beth
here's the ref-photo, of cause I had to manipulate in PhotoShop to make it more clear to see "what's there" ;)

[Brenda]

You've done a beautiful job with this, Lene! I'm not surprised. Looking at your banner I can see that you have a way with animal portraits.

[Arlene]

it looks good so far, but i feel it needs more values. in trying to lighten it, you lost the drama and depth to his face. notice your photo in grayscale...and then see what i did in ps.

[lene]

thanks Brenda and Arlene
Arlene, I was in doubt about the values...especially that left side took very much of my attention - I agree the tounge and white fur can take darker values as you suggest ;) I still have time to alter that :)

[Arlene]

i didn't only darken the lighter areas but also gave more variety in the darker areas too

[Arlene]

here's yours and what i did side by side...oh and the eyes too

[lene]

Hi
now - I darkened tounge and some fur + eyes.
I don't know all the "Mysterious Ways of the Scanner", as even 2 scans right after each other (this has to be scanned twice) comes up with difference as to darkness/lightness. Gives a lot of work putting them together. :(
But the original is better now :) .. also made a slight correction on right side (our view) where the white fur on nose overlaps black cheek, it had to have a little curve :)
thanks for looking and comments + help
... and it looks like border collies are going to be on my drawing table for a while - just got a commission (payed for !!!) on two of this breed. :clap: They are to be in graphite also - looks like thats what people prefer from me so far ... ;)

[Brenda]

It's amazing what values will do. This looked great when you first posted it but it looks so much better with the deeper values.

Congrats on your commissions!! :clap:

[lene]

thanks Brenda :)

[Denise]

lene- this is really beautifully done! The tongue still seems as if it needs darkening toward the back to recede it and maybe just a bit more shading under the mouth on the fur as well.

You really made that fur look soft! Great job...and I love his eyes...they look blue;)

[lene]

Hi Denise
thanks for your input :)
The original looks allright I think, so I'll leave it finished at this stage ;)

[lene]

hi again
just the final - I did do some minor changes to his nose.... going to mail for approval to the owner tomorrow ;)

[Arlene]

better but...

there would be shadows on his snout even though it's white. and they'd be alot more noticeable. also our left side, his face still feels as if it's a bit flat.

and on the right side don't be afraid of "lost" edges where two planes meet are the same value...your eye will fill in "missing" details.

Notice how in the version i showed you on the right side, the edge of the face and the fur behind the face don't have a light line separating it, but your eye still fills in that it's the edge of the face? the white edge actually tends to flatten the face a bit.

you also need to put some shadows in his eyes, especially the one on our right.

what i did is again do a side by side comparison...of your newest version and the one i had played with. You're so close with this beautiful drawing...how about getting it all the way there.

[lene]

Hi
arlene, thanks for the encouragement :)
I darkened fur even more + eye + nose.
The lightest shadows on nose is not very clear in the scan, but my patience with my scanner is now cero so won't scan again .. :o (working with a drawing that has to be scanned in 2 pieces theres so much to be corrected afterward to make them fit properly - even with PhotoShop CS. Just the problem of one looking leaning towards black and the other towards brown :eek: )

[lene]

... looking at my original compared to what I see on my screen:
the eye is darker, the nose-shadows are darker and right side (dog) fur is darker ;)

[lene]

Okay, this is the final.
The owner wanted it darkened on left side (sunny side of face). I was worried about this - I had much trouble how much to define the sunlight in the first place. But actually I think this darkened version is better. So finito ;)

[artfulscribe]

I think pushing the values was a great piece of advice...even though you didn't take the shading as far as the PS example, the difference is really noticeable!

Your client is sure to be thrilled with this! :D

Roxana

[lene]

Your client is sure to be thrilled with this! :D

Roxana

Hi
Roxana - I wish it was so :(
The owner has now e-mailed to me, that she misses Barnys freckles (and I cannot see them on the photo :o ) + his has too much white fur :bangin: I don't know where that is, and she hasn't replied yet :confused:
The problems here seems to be that 1. I have not told her clearly enough ( :crybaby: ) how important the photo I shall draw from really is (!) - not knowing her dog at all + 2. that I then accepted this photo.
It is not very encouraging to have a first-commission that keeps coming back (not the original of cause, but file in e-mails). I want the customer to be satisfied and to recognize her dog for sure, but I have to be more firm when it comes to photo-quality ;) + really point out if anything is incorrect or missing in the photo I must know from start :cool: Lesson learned :blushing:

[Rose]

Oh Lene! :console: That has to be truly frustrating! I went back and checked the photo ref and boy, it sure is hard to tell that there are freckles!! I think your portrait of Barny is SUPER!!! She has many photos of Barny, but this drawing would be a perfect addition! The white fur is also in the right place, maybe she means you need to go darker on the top of the head where his hair is jet black? I guess that would all have to be discussed. Let us know the outcome!

[hippiejane]

Wow, the fur is soo realistic. How do you make it look so soft ? I try fur and always give up because it just looks like lines.
Don't you just love how computers can assist with the lighting and the values ? woo hooo

Excellent job :clap:

[lene]

thanks Rose and HippieJane
Rose, I have still not heard from the owner concerning this, just have to wait for it - you bet it feels frustrating, but as I said in earlier post I have learned a lesson on photo-refs :cool:
HippieJane; I can see an improvement in my own work, earlier my fur-drawings looked more like lines. It is difficult to explain what I actually do different; being more careful not drawing "harsh" lines is one thing. Concentrate more on seing "what is going on" in the ref-photo .. Also I use a tortillion and also improved how to use that .... So it certainly is a matter of trying over and over .. And posting in this forum can also "push" me more than I can do myself - but I have also improved pushing myself more that earlier, simply not being satisfied to soon ;) .... Is that any help ?

[Bob Ebdon]

This is always the way with dog commissions Lene - the owner knows EXACTLY how the dog should look, so fills in everything the photo doesn't show and expects you to see the missing bits too. It is very hard doing dog portraits. I think your picture is great, especially the hair and the extra work you put into it. I hope you can satisfy the owner.

[Gemma]

Well, it can really be frustrating trying to please someone at times..... but just know this Lene.... you did an excellent job on this dog, esspecialy with the reference you had to work from! Well done!!

Gemma

[Amazingreys]

I agree, it is beautiful.
About the owners wishes, I am curious to see how all of this unfolds. I'm learning from this unfortunate part as well. I hope you'll keep us posted.

Dana~

[lene]

Hi
Bob, Gemma and Dana - thanks for your supportive comments - keep my spirit up :)
Also glad to know this is a "common" thing with commissions, Bob, and I understand what you mean. That also assists what I meant with my: "My lesson in acknowledging photo-reference" ;)
... I still haven't got a reply from the owner concerning my question on the white fur ..... doesn't make it easier not knowing what she referrs to :(

I'll keep you posted :bye1:

[Toni]

I'm sorry to hear your having such trouble with this commission. Yeah, it comes with the territory, sooner or later we all have these same issues.

Live and learn? lol ..

I don't find this a bad ref photo at all. I think in trying to make up what you don't see clearly is causing you some frustration?

I know you called this done, but I think you could work on it more, and get a better likeness.

I can also see where the owner thinks Barney has to much white, currently he does.

First is your image Lene, the final one.

Second is your ref photo. I added redlines to areas I think you need to address. Most importantly for me is the ear on our left. He's missing the beautiful "bat wing" that border collies have, which makes him appear lopsided.(the other side could be a little fuller too) Can you see it now? Also when you lighted your ref, you removed some of the shadow that gives his bone structure form. These I also marked in red, not all of it mind you, just enough for you to look at. These are important bone structures!

third is your ref in gs, I have taken and lightened it, then i bumped up the contrast to help you see how much more there is information wise in this ref, than what you have applied to the drawing.

While the brightest white on Barney is his nose, he just has to much of it. Take a look at the ref again, where does the black start really? Compare it to your drawing and what do you find? Do the same with the stripe between his eyes, just how white is it there? Do the same with his ruff.. Is it really that white? How about the edges...I see less white on the right and more black under, do you ?

As for his freckles, I only see a couple, the owner will need to supply you with a better freckle shot lol. ;)

Hope this helps some. If I've confused you don't hesitate to ask what I mean ok?



TJ

[Bob Ebdon]

Well spotted TJ, I didn't look closely enough. You have identified many areas that need attention. But at least you are on the right side Lene, it would have been a lot harder to get back to white than to lose some.

[lene]

Hi Toni
thanks for your comments (even this commission is getting on my nerves :cool: ).
I see what you mean about the hair on left ear, and I also now spot that I got more white on the left side of his nose (our view).
His left cheek (our view) I have reworked several times, I simply cannot achieve a better look than this. I can see in the photo what is "going on" but I cannot "translate it directly" with my pencils (and drawing-skills).... The understanding of what is further back or forth, how the fur is growing etc..

I think that perhaps doing commissions do not "suit me". I never thought it to be an easy task, but I must admit (here I probably sound very supercilious :blushing: ), when I recall what I have seen around of finished commission-work (both live and on www) of dogs, cats and horses I honestly thought people was "satisfied with less" - often drawings that are (to my eyes) very poor in details and not that realistic (where the artists referrs to the artwork as realistic). I mean; there are a lot of really fantastic commissions done, and then there are also a lot of commission-work not that fantastic or at least of a standard of a lower level in drawingskills. I know how this sounds :blushing: Please don't misunderstand me; I don't want the "poorer" to be the standard. And I for sure wanna learn more and do the best I can. I have just had so much work on this particular drawing - finding my drawingskills on how to translate the seen very much tested in some aspects of this drawing (especially the expression of sunreflections-on-black-dog) and I get afraid that one could go on and on finding details not being an excact match to the photo making this an area of so many working hours it will be impossible to keep on with :o

I would very much like people who have experience in commissions to make comments on this :)

[Bob Ebdon]

Dont give up yet Lene! For a start this commission is definitely finishable, you have very little to do to make it perfect. And second, not every owner is like this one - many would be absolutely delighted with what you have done. The problem you have with the sun on blcak is a very common one and comes down to drawing what you see and not what you know. You know the dog is black, so you do it black - but in bright sunlight, shiny fur can be "white" no matter what the colour because so much light bounces off it.

[lene]

thanks Bob ;)

.. actually I think I DID draw what I saw and not what I knew. But that made the owner see a white fur dog with dark spots (if you look backwards in the thread).... I changed the dog to be darker on request of the owner... :)

[Toni]

It's kind of a double edged sword, we as artist want commissons because getting paid for what you love to do is wonderful, but then on the other hand, a commission means were working for someone else, and it's their opinon that matters in the end. (within reason) I hate them, and I love them. No getting around it.

Lene don't worry about what kind of other artwork is out there, just do the best you can do, and when your proud to put your signature on it... then it's done. After all YOUR the artist, not the owner. If she wants a photo.. she's already got one. ;)

Were here for you if its the "seeing" part you need help with... if not this time, then the next.



TJ

[lene]

Hi
Toni, I hope you know that I really appreaciate your help :) I wasn't meaning to push that off or anything...
I can easily follow your opinion on the commission-dilemma - and I am just getting a bit self-pitty here.
I do wanna grow and be a better artist and when one are working on "ones own" art you can work with a piece till it bores you or you simply cannot get it better pt, and then say finished and take the lessons learned and grow further with the next piece. Do I make myself clear :confused: - it can actually be very difficult for me to be sure to translate this correct.
I mean this border collie-drawing - if not a commission - I would now have spent more than 20 hours on it and wanna call it finished, and actually be very happy with it. Then go on to the next work remembering what could be rendered further (for example with excellent help from you and others on ScribbleTalk) and look even closer for the details, that I know could be even better.....
Please tell me if this sounds confusing....

[Toni]

Hi
Toni, I hope you know that I really appreaciate your help :) I wasn't meaning to push that off or anything...
I can easily follow your opinion on the commission-dilemma - and I am just getting a bit self-pitty here.

No worries Lene, I know how frustrating commissions are. Especially if the owner wants changes at the end. I was just trying to help give you a fresh view, just in case you had more changing to do.


I do wanna grow and be a better artist and when one are working on "ones own" art you can work with a piece till it bores you or you simply cannot get it better pt, and then say finished and take the lessons learned and grow further with the next piece. Do I make myself clear :confused: - it can actually be very difficult for me to be sure to translate this correct.

Your perfectly clear. The fact that you desire to improve as an artist with each piece is something we should all strive for. Good for you! If you have such a desire and truly want to improve, work on your observation skills.. and your drawing skills will follow. ;)

I mean this border collie-drawing - if not a commission - I would now have spent more than 20 hours on it and wanna call it finished, and actually be very happy with it. Then go on to the next work remembering what could be rendered further (for example with excellent help from you and others on ScribbleTalk) and look even closer for the details, that I know could be even better.....
Please tell me if this sounds confusing....

Nah, your work is already improving with each piece! Keep up the good work, don't let those commissions frustrate you to much, work on your observations skills and remember a good C&C can be a wonderful learning tool if taken with an open mind. They aren't personal, but about techniques, composition and the use of the medium.

TJ

[lene]

Thanks, appreacite you spend energy and time on this :)

[kim]

Hi Lene,wow what a roller coast ride this commission has turned out to be,but good for you for sticking at it,and getting help from all the great artists here,lets hope client is happy with the finished result,which I might is great. :)

[lene]

Hi
Kim - couldn't have expressed it better in short words :)
Just mailed a new file for the owner.
Mind; this file is a digi-photo not a scan (tonal diff), but you can see corrections :bye1:

[hippiejane]

thanks lene
You explanation of fur helped alot, I wish I could do it like you do.
Obviously its just practice makes perfect :bangin:
You don't need anymore practice on fur though , its already perfect :)

[Denise]

Goodness, Lene! This turned out gorgeous! Wonderful tones and values, just a delight to look at! :clap:

[lene]

Hi
thanks Jane and Denise :)
Jane, with practise you'll be able to for sure ;)

[lucky]

Wow, Lene! This is wonderful! You really worked hard on this and it has improved tremendously! It's really beautiful! Great job! Hope you are feeling really good about it cause you really should be!!!! :clap:

[Chisaii]

Lene, each time you post an update, the piece just gets better and better!! It's so wonderfully done already and each little addition just puts that much more spark in it!! The way you've done the fur is excellent!

Commissions can be a bear but they also serve to make us better! Owners forget and just expect artists (and others) to know their pets as well as they do! Even though you've invested a lot of time already, that's the nature of doing them--some commissions take more time than others!

This piece is so well done and I love it! Take a deep breathe and set it aside for a while to get a fresh perspective.

[lene]

Hi
thanks Lucky and Chisaii :) appreciate your comments very much.
I still haven't heard from the owner, don't know if she's out of Town :confused: