Composition Help for a Newbie.

[glo]

After posting my first piece the other day I'm anxious to do anotherone but I'm a little gun shy (pencil shy). My first ref. pic wasn't complete and my vision lacked many of the details needed for a good painting. While it was my very first piece (not including excercises from books), I don't want to make that mistake again.

So here are 3 photo's I'm considering for my next piece. Wondering what ya'll think about them, composition, possible problems etc. ? So helllppp. :eek:

Gloria

[Bill C]

Hi Gloria,

I personally like the third one best, but I think it could use some cropping. ;) Composition is a challenge for most of us, some get quite technical about it, others go by feel. Good composition can make the difference between a "nice" drawing and a "wow" drawing, one that grabs and holds your attention.

If you haven't already, why don't you take a look at this thread, see what you come up with, and post your ideas here?

http://www.scribbletalk.com/showthread.php?t=47

[glo]

Bill,

I have read the thread you suggested but still find it daunting to analyze a possible photo. When you all discuss comp in other threads I see your points but still find it hard to pick up on this. I'm sure practice is needed to here goes.

I prefer the 2nd one not only because it is of this beautifull flower in my pond but it is a crop I did of the original shot that included much to much background detail of trees and bushes. Too much for my beginners touch. I thought the 3rd one could be used for detail on #2.

I really liked the velvety surface of the leaves. I'm wondering why you suggested #3?

Gloria

[glo]

I also liked #1 because of the contrast between the crocus and the mulch.

Due to a lack of additional suitable photo's that I feel I could pull off, I'm pinning my hopes of another piece on one of these. I have many others that I would love to do once my ablilites improve.

I'm hoping Santa delivers on a book of the complete works of Leonardo DaVinci so I can do the copy a master exercise here on ST. But until then my fingers are itchy to try a new piece.

Gloria

[Bill C]

Gail,

since I'm fairly new at comp I tend to fall into the technical side, trying to follow most of the rules. Hopefully someday good comp will be second nature for me and I wont have to think about it so hard.

First I'll show you my crop and explain my thought process. I like your third pict because I feel the flower is the star. I cropped it to put the flower somewhat in the golden mean (there's that techy stuff, LOL). Without all the bg to compete with my eye stays on the flower. I like the flower on the right side, not in the middle as in the original because its pointing to the upper right. This keeps the eye from trying to travel out of the picture. In this crop, my eye goes from the flower, to the brighter center of that lower right leaf and back to the flower. I'd probably soften the leaves some (not too much detail) to keep them from competing with the flower.


Next I'll talk about the second one, your favorite...............

[Bill C]

Ok, now for your second pict. I understand why you like it, your wanting to capture more of the scene with those lovely leaves. So following my previous thoughts I'd crop it like this. THis takes the flower out of the middle but still keeps more of the leaves. I'm not sure if I'd leave the bud. It adds interest but I'm not sure, hopefully someone else will chime in. Once again I'd have more detail in the flower, less in the leaves.


btw, I love the flower in your first pict but not the bg.

[glo]

I like your ideas, But I thought we were supposed to stay away from square pieces. I'm not sure but I think I read that here somewhere? :confused:

Thank you for your time and comments, Bill.

Gloria

[Bill C]

I like your ideas, But I thought we were supposed to stay away from square pieces. I'm not sure but I think I read that here somewhere? :confused:

Thank you for your time and comments, Bill.

Gloria



hmmmm, these arent square. :D

[glo]

Bill we must have posted at the same time. I have another one of crocuses and little pebbles around but the flowers weren't as pretty as the one in #1.

I will have to go back an look again at the crop.

Gloria

[glo]

I guess I was thinking the first crop of #3 was square. OOOPs

I should probably look at this when I'm fresher, I had a painting deadline today and I'm fried. Thanks for your imput, I value your opinion.

Gloria

[oozoo]

Gloria, the mulch in #1 is very repetitive to the eye, and it will drive you crazy to draw. It doesn't have as much drama, and it doesn't have as broad a range of values in the flower.

#2 is better, it has those dark shadows between the leaves, a bit more drama, and the flower has a broader range of values, which will give it more interest and make it more fun to draw.

#3 is the best because you're cutting out extraneous bits (like the ground in the far upper right of #2) and it increases the sense of drama. It gives the leaves a little more of an abstract feel, and brings more focus on the flowers. It's still no perfect because of placement...

This is the simplest way to think of comp.
1.Remember the rule of thirds. If you folded your page into thirds from top to bottom, then opened it up and folded it again in thirds from left to right, you want your focus to be right in one of the places where the lines intersect. If possible you want some point of interest in every spot where the lines intersect, but that's not always possible.

2. Imagine taking a bright marker or pencil and just tracing over some of the lines that the shapes make...for example, the lines between the green and the dark shadow of the leaves. What direction do these lines point? Do they draw you in towards your subject? Do the frame the subject? Remember that the eye enters a picture in the top left corner, so see what direction the lines take your eye.

You could get into some more complicated things like repetitive shapes, color theory as it pertains to comp, etc. etc. but these two are the simplest most basic rules of composition. If you re-crop your second pic with those things in mind, I bet you could come up with something which has the dramatic feel of the third pic but even better!

[glo]

Wow now that makes since. I knew about the golden means but really hadn't measured it out on these. And your second rule hadn't been put quite that way before. Thanks, back to the drawing board for me.

Thanks for your time Oozoo.

Gloria

[Debee]

Gloria, don't be gun shy, that will get you no where. Your photos show me that you have that natural feel going for you. The information that Bill and Oozoo has given you will develop that natural feel as you grow.

I like the crocus as it has a good light source, but agree with Oozoo, unless you simplify that ground cover it will become the center of interest. The image I've done is a very rough idea. If you squint at your reference real hard to get just the value patterns of the outer area and leaving the texture for the areas that are closest to the flower. You would have to make sure that you don't create a halo around the blossom. Think somewaht 3D. What is behind the flower is blurred. What is on the same plane as the flower and in front of the flower is in focus except for far right and left. As you can see I also cropped it so that the blossom is in the area of thirds vertically.

One thing I learned in a college art course that has stuck with me. That is to create a small thumbnail of your painting using 3 values ( or the way Arlene does it do a gray scale) so that you can see the abstract pattern they create and to write down what you want to achieve. Example: Keep colors in blossom clear and bright with lightest values in the highlights. Create a blurring of mulch as eye moves out, add some leaves to right of blossom (these would contain the lightest of the greens), remove some leaves at left (these leaves would be more subdued to keep eye from pulling) .......... on and on.
This helps you create a mental plan, or "head talk", and after a while you find you stop using it because that "head talk" becomes second nature.
BTW, you will learn from every work that you do. I would dare to say that every single artist has an area in each work that they struggled with or didn't go as planned, and they move on to the next work to grow some more.

Be sure to squint when you view this to get the effect.

[glo]

Debee thanks for the efforts. I think I get it but I'm not sure how to pull off the blurry background as far as technique goes. Do you block in colors loosely and then blend with a brush? Kind of with the side of the pencil, building up layers, overlapping slighly and then blend. And of course Arlene would say work this at the same time as the main subject. But I'm afraid with the loose strokes that I might oops into the main area. Is that clear?

Gloria

[gail]

Gail,

since I'm fairly new at comp I tend to fall into the technical side, trying to follow most of the rules. Hopefully someday good comp will be second nature for me and I wont have to think about it so hard.
competing with the flower.


...............


Ahh, but Bill I studied and got my BFA in design almost 25 years ago, then worked in Graphic Design and Typography for years with deadlines. That's what made it become second nature...that and a true love for design.

[Arlene]

i like #2. it gives some depth to it and has interest with the bg. I cropped to make the flower in the golden section.

[glo]

It amazes me how many different opinions come from everyone. Thank you all for your imput. Still wondering how to pull off a blurring of background for #1, in technique with the pencils. And I'm curious if Arlene feels that since #2 bg shows interest if she feels the texture of the leaves(velvetyness) should be shown or blurred/softened?

Gloria

[glo]

I think there is a confusion between Gail and Glo here, Glo is Gloria.